<_marius_> _hc, good idea! <_hc> then we can learn from that one, and have another round to improve it * edkelly has quit (Connection timed out) matju, (considering a "reference" patch is a special kind of documentation) woo hoo! <_marius_> _hc, when? hello everyone <_marius_> 2 weeks? <_hc> shall we have a grant+template meeting next week? If we could know what template is _the_ template, then we could all work on yet another one for a next meeting. If there are no new template, then the strategies can be discussed at that meeting. how about that? <_marius_> _hc, are the same people involved? bbogart: what if we needed several different templates for the system, and needed to document some parts of classes in different pages that are not about any actual class in particular? should we strike a "template" team? <_hc> _marius_: anyone who wants to show up <_hc> lazy consensus * cabowitz has quit ("Ex-Chat") <_marius_> we can also talk about templates next week never mind. that was already said while i typed. <_marius_> grant and templates matju, agreed, that is a bigger issue that things like "all about" templates are for. There is room for different kinds of templates for certain. But this is really about having "reference" -help as a starting point per object. <_hc> stffn: currently template 9 is the agreed upon standard: http://puredata.org/dev/pddp/DraftReferenceDesigns ok, so templates and grants for next week. ok <_marius_> I think we don't have to discuss the wiki layout anymore Matju and Marius will you bring alt templates to next meeting? * AC_Mast has quit (Remote closed the connection) bbogart: i would like most non-class-specific functionality to be documented in something that is more like a class reference patch than an "all about" patch. <_marius_> bbogart, yes _marius_, why not? bbogart: yes matju, indeed we should talk about that, are you fine with having that discussion next week? bbogart: yes. I'll make one more temlate called 11 which will be just minor changes, and I'll try and make a reference patch for another object to see what its like. <_marius_> and I will work on a wiki template, so that we can discuss it * edk has quit (Connection timed out) _marius_, perfect! <_hc> sounds like a plan one concern wrt the templates witch is kind-of not related to the consernes of marius and matju. i think, fancy pddp gui abstractions are confusing to new users. Ok, so I'm taking on a lot for next week, I should soon get started. stffn, "abstractions" what do you mean? it might be OT right now... like the dsp on/off links stffn, something in the template? *cough* links being confusing? <_marius_> can I ask you again to help me finishing the csv list of objects and abstractions? I think the example patches should be as simple as possible. _marius_, "you" meaning? too many colours are confusing for me <_marius_> whoever wants to help me with that links in it self and on/off in it self: no. learning pd i fund fansy stuff confusing sine it didn't know how it worked. im bottum up, not top down kinnda guy. might be why. since i didn't* pueblo, in terms of the template? (grey, white + a highlight colour is there now) but the bangs were coloured... <_marius_> just pick a library that is not in it and create a csv file like the one I posted. who wants to help Marius? * patko (n=pat@bar06-2-87-91-60-39.dsl.club-internet.fr) has joined #dataflow stffn, I think the patches should be as simple as possible, maybe the float example (template9) is a little too colorful) bbogart I see many colours here http://www.puredata.info/dev/pddp/pddp-drafts/PDDPabout-template-2-grab/image_view_fullscreen patch meaning the two blobs at the top that have connections pueblo, template 9 is the current version!!! <_marius_> bbogart, ok, then it maybe will take a little bit longer... ah ya pueblo, but its still only 3 colours + grey... pueblo: if there's a colour chart that is easy to remember and gives the meaning of every colour, i'm ok, but if a consistent explanation can't be given for each colour, then i think it's bad _marius_, what will take longer? grey is not good i think but its a detail <_marius_> I will post my request on the pd list, too. with more details. pueblo: except for pages that especially deal with colours, of course. <_marius_> bbogart, it will take longer to create the list, if I have to do it alone pueblo, please make a template also and make a screenshot for next week. what is i i the agenda for tonight? what else* _marius_, maybe its too long past the end of the meeting. :( I don't have time this week with what I have taken on, you should write a mail to the PD list and ask those who may not have been here. I think we're fizzled out. actually, using a system of send/receive, the [cnv] headers could be tagged according to their meaning, and get assigned colours automatically based on a colour scheme (style sheet). * AC_Mast (i=s@gateway/tor/x-bdacf8650377dcf0) has joined #dataflow I have lots of notes to put on the wiki. <_marius_> ok, I am fine Any last issues? and i mean all [cnv] boxes, actually, not just those functioning as headers. matju, nice idea, making a prototype for next week? <_marius_> is the color a separate entry in [cnv]? <_marius_> then you could use sed to replace it... <_marius_> ... with another _marius_: it's the same with all IEMGUI colours... _marius_: no, don't use sed _marius_: it's not diff-friendly FYI for those making alt templates use a funny name to show they are branches, not just 12, 13, 14.. I'll finish the old branch with #11. _marius_: it makes things hard to merge <_marius_> I don't know how it is handled by iemgui, is it a separate number? Any last issues before we kick off? <_marius_> no, let's have food _marius_: and then you have to recognise the difference between one use of [cnv] and another... you still need some kind of identifier in each [cnv] that sed can read... and i don't want to be the one who has to write those sed scripts! Next meeting for templates and grant next week on the 18th, 1 hr later. <_marius_> matju, if the number information is separated and the color is unique, then you can just find and replace <_hc> bbogart: sounds like a plan <_marius_> thanks bbogart for leading the discussion! _marius_: "just find and replace" is something that i don't want to do. changes to pd patches are already sufficiently unmergeable as they are now. _marius_, hard to keep you guys in line! ;) <_marius_> thnx everybody for participating check the PDDP wiki as I put new stuff on there. bbogart: can you pls post the link again?! <_marius_> matju, replacing one unique number with another unique number (both colors) will not break a pd patch and are mergeable... _marius_: i had written a paper for pd convention about the issue of being able to merge changes between pd patches. <_marius_> matju, I know, you told the story, it was not accepted... <_hc> sesselastronaut: http://puredata.org/dev/pddp/ the template is (functionally) ok in my opinion... just it doesn't look good cause of different font sizes here: http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/5636/craptc7.png <_hc> matju: post the paper somewhere else so people can read it _marius_: as soon as someone moves a header in one branch and changes the colour of that header in another branch, merging the two changes causes a cvs conflict _marius_: and here, by "branch", i include every local change as well, so it can simply happen by one person doing a plain commit and another doing a plain update. _hc: ok, but it'll need to be somewhat more polished before i release it in the wild. <_marius_> matju, can you think of any solution to seperate layout and content? <_marius_> at least color schemes _marius_: what makes you think that the colour number will be unique in that patch? you don't know that. <_marius_> matju, you have to make it unique... _marius_: the only solution i can think of, is using receive-symbols. <_hc> federico__: the template needs to be adjusted for the new font size correction yeah, thanks, bbogart, for putting a structure on the meeting. <_hc> federico__: but the problems are in each version, so these templates won't work well in older vesriosn _hc: yeah. I propose making a bit more spaced (in case of slightly bigger fonts), and removing that useless yellow canvases _marius_: i can't make a colour number unique. if i need colour # -1, there's no way to avoid writing -1, which might be in use in a lot of non-colour contexts. it's ended now, right? <_marius_> matju, which color is -1 <_hc> stffn: yup, but feel free to keep chatting :D <_hc> stffn: any news on the exhibit? <_marius_> matju, I am only talking about templates, and people don't like the colors of the canvas cool. i can't chat now, gotta study and clean up some physical mess. Just have the urge to: <_marius_> cu next week **** The PDDP Meeting Has Ended **** see you! joop stffn: you don't have that authority... graphical structure in irc chats are good too, not only in Pd help patches. 8) <_marius_> **** now! **** <_hc> stffn: I'd say all visual interfaces should be grasphically structured _marius_: people are talking about the colours because up to now the colours are a striking element of the templates. if you want to avoid colour politics, the way is to move colours outside of the templates, which is what i'm talking about. matju: i don't need it. do i? <_marius_> *** I _ D E C L A R E _ T H E _ P D D P _ M E E T I N G _ F O R _ E N D E D !!!! **** stffn: oh, you can write things all you want, within the same limits as everybody else... o gosh eeeh? does pd have colors? :D C A N I G E T A R E W I N D ? ? ? federico__: pd has a lot of colours. just ask edkelly... matju: who?? federico__: someone who was at pd convention. he lives in UK. he also attended part of this meeting * mescalinum (n=mescalin@d83-181-253-162.cust.tele2.it) has joined #dataflow yo... I just have to point out that i didn't declare anything. i just highlighted the fact that the meeting was over, since bbogart didn't. in the same time, by doing that, i silently proposed to hightlight milesstones in an irc meeting like that (or similar), such that it's easier to browes the log file in relation to the agenda. finally i ended here with reading the meeting after its inished yard: what's a "rewind" ? * federico__ is now known as FEDE31C0 matju, how do you wanna separate colors of [cnv]s in help-patces? ed's speach cutter is quite colour-full. I think thats what matju is referring to. i mean, when you using unique receive names, where are the sends? * kareem_ is now known as theSamo _hc: i agree up to some cultural factor (that i don't quite know of). matju, do you wanna put them into a separate abstractions? <_hc> stffn: what's the word on the exhibit section of the web site? I'd really love to see that go live matju, i don't quite see how layout and content could be separated in help-patches in a nice way though, it would be cool, of course, to do tat that _hc: the word is, that i'm not bus hit ant more, so action should happen soon'ish. to thos, who are still here: s/ant/no/ is there any focus on making the template so, that it could easily parsed by 3rd party software? *be i gotta run. * grrrr_ has quit () rdz: I suppose that's the point (meta data) <_hc> stffn: bus hit ant more? i'd love to here more about authority some other time. seams like an interesting concept... <_hc> rdz: yes, there are standard chunks of text and the META section _hc: in not bus hit no more. _hc: arg, "i am not bus hit no more". <_hc> stffn: you got hit by a bus? hc_, do i understand correctly, that the parsabe information is in its own subpatch? _hc: as in. exams are over. summer holidays are over. i cannot see it from just the picture <_hc> stffn: alles klar <_hc> rdz: you can dl the patch too _hc: the term form the google vid/talk. the subversion guys held. hc_, oops, thanks matju, are you still here?